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Speaker 1
This is a Max Out leadership podcast.
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Speaker 2
One of the things that we know. Again, leaders leadership is all about, you know, being change agents, you know. And according to studies, we've seen that 70% of change initiatives fail. So when I see a lot of the retrospective of things that didn't go well, you could always proceed back to the people they had around them. You could trace it back to the inner circle so the people they trusted.
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Speaker 2
The key to the trusted advisor is treat them like an equal. Surround yourself with people.
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Speaker 1
My guest today is a fascinating leader who joins us from Portland, Oregon. Dr. Richard Osinbajo is the leading expert author, executive coach, program facilitator and keynote speaker in transformational leadership and senior team performance. His work centers on helping senior leaders energize their organization with bold, transformational strategies that a lot human potential and new market rules. He currently serves as director, organizational transformation and chief of staff at Intel Corp. Dr. Austin Banjo holds a Ph.D. in chemistry from the University of California.
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Speaker 1
But today, he's going to talk to us about a different kind of chemistry In a recent article published on Forbes, Dr. Osinbajo presents the Leadership Plans, which refers to the seven people leaders need around them to improve their understanding of themselves and of the situation they are dealing with in order to make better decisions. Without further ado, let's welcome Dr. Richard Osborne, Banjo so welcome, Richard, for joining us.
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Speaker 1
And I want to say really thank you for making the time for our audience today.
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Speaker 2
Thanks, Max, for having me. I don't take opportunities like this for granted, so I'm glad to be here. Thank you.
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Speaker 1
Thank you. Excellent. Now, maybe before we dove into the content now, would you mind introducing yourself to our audience and say a bit about your background, please, Richard?
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Speaker 2
I have an interesting background considering the fact, you know, very technical. I had my Ph.D. in chemistry today at Intel. I'm an OG development leader working with our senior leaders to make sure we create organizations whereby people can bring their best selves and accelerate the results that we truly want that Intel saw. And also outside of Intel and the Marshall Goldsmith's op ed Koch as well.
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Speaker 2
And I also work with leaders both within the US and also internationally to prepare the next generation of leaders for the future.
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Speaker 1
Wow. This is really impressive, I guess I should say. A really Dr. Richard, shouldn't I?
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Speaker 2
Come on, Max, you're my own personal doctor, so it's. It's fine.
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Speaker 1
It's fine. Well, I find that really fascinating. And that's going to be my my first question, really, how how do we go from doctor in chemistry into organizational development?
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Speaker 2
That itself is another podcast, so I'm going to keep it as short as possible. I think ultimately for me, it's been a journey of purpose. You know, I'm one of my mentors, Miles let Miles Dr. Miles Munro often says that, you know, when purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable. And my spin to it is when purpose is known, success is inevitable.
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Speaker 2
So ultimately, I you know, I don't see myself totally leaving the technical or the science aspect. So what I tell people is that I move from the science of things to the science of people. So it's still all about the connections. So that was the transition. But ultimately was about finding my purpose. I needed to be a fish inside of water.
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Speaker 2
I needed to get my whole floor. And ultimately, for me is reducing that gap in terms of who you are and what you do, you know, as the who, what gap. And I think ultimately, once people can align who they add to what they do, I think it gives them higher fulfillment, job satisfaction, and they're able to thrive in what they do.
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Speaker 1
Wow, that's great. I can really relate to that. I know when I share with people about doing this leadership podcast and writing about leadership. First reaction is, Oh, you are a finance person. I do get into leadership. And this is this a has always been the passion of mine, and I already really I can relate to that. So that leads me to my next question, really, which is what is your definition of leadership?
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Speaker 2
Great question. You know, ultimately, I don't think there's any one definition. You know, for me, it's being a person that people want to follow. And when I talk about follower, I don't mean followership. I mean been able to inspire people to want to do something not because they have to, but because they want to because they see the bigger picture.
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Speaker 2
So that's what I would look at, leadership, because a leader it's been a leader is a title. Leadership is actions. What are the actions you take? What is the mindsets that you have that inspires people to want to go in a particular direction to achieve a particular result? So that's how I would look at, you know, leader leadership.
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Speaker 1
You know, I really very much enjoy your your articles and Forbes and, you know, everything that you write. And I think it's very inspiring. And in particular, you know, one of your recent articles, you were talking about the leadership lens. And that's what I would like us to explore over the next few minutes in this podcast. But can you share with us know what is the leadership lens and why do you think that is important for for leaders?
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Speaker 2
I'm blessed to have an opportunity to work with some of the most senior leaders, you know, either within Intel or even outside, you know, Fortune. 500 leaders outside of Intel. And one of the things that I have seen through my experience is that time is never enough. You know, executives have more work to do than the time that they have.
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Speaker 2
More often than not, they often have to prioritize what they need to get done. So more and more, they have to rely on the people around them, trust the people around them to get insights and to make decisions based on those. And from my observation is that when you trust some decisions at times based on some very significant decisions that are made, is typically dependent on the quality of the data that they get.
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Speaker 2
So if that data by itself, it has bias in it. So just think of the results that are going to come out from that. So that's one of the things is that are leaders, leaders super busy, whether from the C-suite organizational leaders, managers of managers, if they don't get the right information if they don't have the right people around them who have a very broad lens of where they are driving their sources of information in the actual, you will be doing the leader a disservice not because they plan to do so, but unintentionally.
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Speaker 2
So that's why, you know, it's a big focus because we live in a volatile on something, you know, complex environment So it's really important that with the little time leaders have, they have quality data to make the right decisions.
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Speaker 1
No, I absolutely agree. And that has always been one of the challenge for myself. You know, I identify myself as an analytical person who like to analyze the information and and sometimes it can be daunting where you have to make a decision with very little information available. And so you you always I feel as a leader, as much as you want to have the broad line, sometimes have to go with what you have.
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Speaker 1
So how how what has been your experience with the leaders that you you coach and you work with in terms of, you know, operating sometimes with a lens that could be blurred? I'll how do they manage that kind of situation?
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Speaker 2
The work we do from a leadership perspective is more apt than science or best. It's you know, it's a mixture. There are some challenges that come with that. So I was reading a book recently and it talks about what happened during 911 and that 911 some some organizations whether it was the FBI, some people further down the organization had gotten information that an attack was imminent, but that information was meant to be passed to a different department or unit.
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Speaker 2
But because it came further down in the department, it wasn't taken as seriously. Also in that same book, they gave another example of Enron from Enron. Somebody had mentioned that some certain things are not looking right, you know, but again, because the information came from below in the organization, that information wasn't taken seriously because the leaders thought if this thing was so important, I, as the leader of the organization, had to know.
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Speaker 2
And if I did not know that, you know, then probably is not as important. They are not consciously thinking that is an unconscious thing so or so saw working with leaders. It depends on the culture which they surround themselves with that really enables people to be able to bring that raw, that boldness, that confidence to the table. So it is tricky, you know, so I don't think leaders come into a room to say, hey, I'm the smartest person in the room.
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Speaker 2
I know all of this. But again, consciously or unconsciously, the environment they create around themselves will tend to how people tend to show up.
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Speaker 1
I think that that's going to take us into maybe going into how you came about to write this article, what's the story behind it? Behind it? What what was inspiration that led you into writing about the leadership lens? And how did you learn about the what you shared in that in that article?
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Speaker 2
One of the things that we know, again, leaders leadership is all about, you know, being change agents. You know, and according to studies we've seen that 70% of change initiatives fail and don't even looking at the leaders I work with, even looking at leaders in the environment but inside of my day job and outside of my day job, you know, when I'm in, especially in coaching sessions, you're able to just begin to step back and just begin to see a pattern of things that are forming.
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Speaker 2
Because what the leaders, they have very limited time and ultimately what they hear begins to form a perception and a mindset in their minds and ultimately determines that action. So when I see a lot of the retrospective of things that didn't go well, you could always trace it back to the people they had around them. You could trace it back to their inner circle so the people they trusted, and in many instances, it wasn't as if it wasn't like the inner circle wasn't adequate or competent.
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Speaker 2
Well, it wasn't just expansive and inclusive. It didn't cover a lot of territory. And this way West saw that a lot of the things were going wrong.
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Speaker 1
Can you walk us through then that inner circle? How should it look like also we have around the table?
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Speaker 2
Absolutely. You know, one of the first things I did mention, you know, Max, at the beginning of this is is the aspect of culture. And typically, I, I this how I explain culture to, you know, leaders. Anyone I speak with is that, you know, culture definitely is an output is an outcome of how people work on how things get done.
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Speaker 2
And culture. I would define it as, you know, both of us are putting on our jackets right now. Just imagine if the temperature of the room goes about 70 or 75 degrees Fahrenheit. What are we going to do? Nobody has to tell you at night that automatically we begin to take off our jackets. All of a sudden, if the temperature drops of 60 degrees Fahrenheit, we want to put our jackets back on.
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Speaker 2
That is culture. Culture. It's that theme, you know, that controls people's behavior. You don't have to tell that. Right? Right. So if leaders see themselves as the custodians of culture, as the custodians of people around them, then that would enable them to not going to the seven people, leaders you have around them. And one of the first ones I had there is the trusted advisor.
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Speaker 2
Right. And of course, from a trusted advisor perspective, you know, leaders work with a ton of people, whether they work with their you know, their h.R. Whether they work with finance whether they work with Lego or whether they work with Ops. You know, they have their chief of staff's. You know, they have a lot of people and also they have their executive leadership team around them.
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Speaker 2
Now, the important thing about this trusted advisers when I was going back to culture earlier on, is the quality of the information you hear from them. Most of the time depends on the environment you create. So let's say, for example, you're in a meeting, right? Some of this, you know, i've experienced like i said, i'm not talking from any one perspective you know, whether it's internal or outside of media.
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Speaker 2
I'm just giving a general perspective. You had a meeting and a leader says something and somebody has a contrary opinion or something very different at that meeting. But it's obviously not true. The response of the leader of the body language or what happens to the person three or four or five weeks after that, that that itself was not welcomed.
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Speaker 2
So unconsciously, the leader has said, I am not somebody who should be challenged. So guess what? What happens after that? So when the leader asks of feedback, you know, people are just going to reinforce what the leader has said. Even Patrick Lencioni, you know, in his book in The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, he gave the example of the CEO, you know, when people asked and everybody, you know, just said, oh, you're right, because the one person who spoke up got into trouble.
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Speaker 1
Absolutely.
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Speaker 2
So and the kids trusted advice, as is. You have to see your trusted advisers as equals.
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Speaker 1
Mm hmm.
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Speaker 2
Nothing less. They are your equal partners. When you treat somebody as an equal partner, then it's not about saving you it's about making sure the organization is successful. So whether they are not concerned about, you know, pampering your ego, your pride, I don't want to hug this person. They are pushing the organization front and foremost. So the secret to having trusted advisers around you, first of all, surround yourself with people.
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Speaker 2
You respect that if they say something, they can take your posture. Listen, if you don't respect somebody around you, their opinions, their thoughts, then you're doing yourself a disservice. So when they speak, you can see them as equal partners.
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Speaker 1
That's so true. And I think it's a lot to do with the leader's ability to to listen and to to to welcome those diverse views around them. Because, you know, someone says, you know, if you if you surround yourself with people that you don't want to listen to them, you will end up having people who have nothing to say because you don't listen to them.
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Speaker 1
So, no, absolutely not. That's great. But then you also talk. So that was the first person to to to surround yourself with. And you talk to the second person being the coach. Can you tell us about the coach as being the second person important for that leadership lens?
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Speaker 2
One of the things I will mention regarding the coach is when you look when you're driving there's there is you have your side mirrors, you have your air, you know, your rear view mirror as well. Imagine taking a trip and you don't have any of those things, right? You don't have your side there, your side you mirror don't have your rear view mirror because each and every one of us has a blind spot whether we like it or not.
00:15:50:07 - 00:16:13:23
Speaker 2
So one of the essence of what the coach does is to help you through that process. They're not solving it for you because you have the answers that are inside coming from you. And the second thing I also mention regarding the coaches, think of the best athletes in the world. You know, whether we're talking about Simon Bowles, you know, to Ronaldo, you know, in the soccer field to LeBron James, just think of the best players in the world.
00:16:14:13 - 00:16:37:08
Speaker 2
They all have coaches. Why is that? Is because they understand that with the coach, they can go further and faster. What can be somebody else? Because somebody is helping them go through their blind spots. So now my question is, if all these best athletes in the world have coaches, the very best given the Serena, the Williams sisters, they have coaches, what's our excuse or the leader's excuse for not having one?
00:16:38:10 - 00:16:49:13
Speaker 2
Having a coach is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of strength that you recognize that you can do better. What can we someone like somebody said, when you stand on the shoulders of a giant, you see that.
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Speaker 1
And I think that is something in in the coach as well that sometimes people misunderstand and they're thinking that. And I don't know what's your take on that is? Well, will be your best coach. Would you give the example in sport and it's true that you know, you should take Roger Federer at the peak of his career was best tennis player arguably some people will say of his generation don't ask the fans of Rafael Nadal but that coach whether it's Nadal or Federer there probably are not people who have won so many grand slams they have done so what makes a great coach, these people who have done the same or how do we identify
00:17:34:11 - 00:17:42:18
Speaker 1
what could be a push for a leader? You a CEO with your will, your best coach, for the CEO of Voices with the executive?
00:17:42:20 - 00:18:06:06
Speaker 2
That's an interesting question, Max, because if you know, you see a CEO, they are looking for a coach is the advice able to get, you know, a CEO, a former coach who has been been a CEO because they understand your time constraints, they understand the pressure on the job, there's a set, everything. Is that an added advantage? Absolutely no questions asked.
00:18:06:06 - 00:18:33:17
Speaker 2
If you had somebody who cannot relate to what you're doing or what you are saying, they may not understand the impact of what you're going through. So having someone definitely who has some form of experience in an area that you are in, in some leadership capacity, is also an added bonus, no question asked. When I'm looking at coaches, one of the things I usually recommend, you know, to my clients is when you're looking for a coach, you are really thinking about buying a pair of shoes and then buying a pair of shoes and think of these shoes that you are going to use.
00:18:33:21 - 00:18:44:22
Speaker 2
You're going to walk 30 miles, hundred miles in these shoes. At that point in time, you're going to be looking for something. Does it fit one? And number two, because it's a journey, is it comfortable?
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Speaker 1
Right.
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Speaker 2
Those two things must align. Does it fit and the fit might be what their level of experience, you know, what kind of exposure have they had before? The other thing is, is it comfortable? Do we have a chemistry? Do we have a connection? Because I'm really going to be opening up to this person, you know, do I respect this person?
00:19:02:13 - 00:19:18:21
Speaker 2
Do I trust this person? So those two things must come together in order for you to, you know, find your coach. And also going back to the competence question you asked about is if I need you know, if I have a toothache, I'm not going to go and meet a gardener. Right. If I have a toothache, I'm going to see a dentist.
00:19:18:21 - 00:19:25:22
Speaker 2
If I have an eye thing, I'm going to be seeing an optometrist, you know, you know, I'm Opthamologist. So those are the two things I'm going to be looking at.
00:19:26:01 - 00:19:40:21
Speaker 1
No, absolutely not. That's really great. So then so that was a second first until, you know, we talked about the trusted advisor approach. And then the third one, you talked about this says this is a big word.
00:19:41:01 - 00:19:59:17
Speaker 2
Yes. And I think I use the word sage because, you know, when you look at Sage, you say the person is wise. You know, when you look at and I don't necessarily mean the person is smarter than you because in today's world, you know, you have to have a mixture of things coming together that no one person has the answer.
00:20:00:01 - 00:20:18:17
Speaker 2
But the sage perspective I'm coming from is most somebody who has been where you want to go. So they have insights, but there is a failure or successes that you don't have to go through to get back because wherever any one of us wants to go in this world, somebody else has been there before. So you don't have to waste time recreating the will.
00:20:18:17 - 00:20:30:06
Speaker 2
You can just tap and lean into these people to help you through somebody. You can just say who gets what you are going through, who has been there before, or who has valuable insights is what I would call, you know, the sage.
00:20:30:09 - 00:20:58:11
Speaker 1
One of the leaders I work with likes to say that, you know, you can learn the hard way by the cheapest, you know, the cheaper way of running which is running through all those people experience. Now, at the same time, I've observed that, you know, even in myself, sometimes it's hard for people to learn from other people experience, you know, if you just have to I've been the parent to see with your own children trying to steer them through some experience.
00:20:58:11 - 00:21:23:24
Speaker 1
But sometimes people find it difficult to learn really from other people experience. I don't know what what has been your your your your your your observation with people you work with? How how how do they what would you recommend leaders to to look for when they are looking for comparable experience and that so that they can hear the voice of the sage with advising them.
00:21:24:03 - 00:21:46:10
Speaker 2
We need to look at we can break a sage into 22 stages. There's the internal sage, even from a coaching perspective whereby we have the answers right inside of us. But the reason why we don't tap enough into that stage is because we never make time to listen to it. And so that means that if I want to be a leader who is growing, then I have to find some time for introspection.
00:21:46:10 - 00:22:10:20
Speaker 2
To reflect, because knowledge is not what helps is applied knowledge, right? And those insights come through introspection. So that's one stage in the second stage whereby I'm looking at what other people have gone through. Yes, there could be an argument to say both of us are two different people if we've gone through the same things, your personality, your temperament, the environment might be different from mine.
00:22:11:04 - 00:22:19:10
Speaker 2
So the thing from there is to understand that, yes, not every experience is the same but even if I use a microscope, what is there to learn from this?
00:22:19:14 - 00:22:31:23
Speaker 1
And that takes us to the fourth view, the fourth lens, the first 4% are on the table, the leader, and they are many of them. You talk about the minority voices. Why those minority voices?
00:22:31:23 - 00:22:50:17
Speaker 2
You know, the reason why I use minority voice is that when you look at the in any organization you have, you know, the leadership team, typically the next leadership team level down. Typically, I would say they make about five to 10% of the organization. You now have 80% of the people for the down who kind of do the work.
00:22:51:18 - 00:23:08:09
Speaker 2
The decisions that are being made typically is made by this top five or 10%. That affects the remaining 80% of the people who do the work. Now, when we look at the concepts of leadership, going back to my original definition, you want to inspire people in a particular direction because they want to, not because you told them to.
00:23:08:24 - 00:23:33:12
Speaker 2
And one of the things we do is that when we look at our personal relationships, the people who are closest to us, again, employees are also human beings. They have feelings because they have title employees does not dehumanize them. For your minority voices, the employees, how much time do you give to listen to what they say? Because most times, you know, the leadership team often has the voices in their truth surveys.
00:23:33:12 - 00:23:54:19
Speaker 2
You know, town hall meetings. And again, these meetings are typically few and far between. And if you want to inspire people, then they need to know they've been hurt. They need to know that their voice matters. But this is the same set of people. 80% of the people that we don't give enough of attention to, and we are the people responsible for the output that goes to the door.
00:23:54:24 - 00:24:13:02
Speaker 2
So that's this for me is one of the most underdeveloped, underutilized, you know, voices in an organization. And even if you hear them or you read those reports, have you let them know that I hear you, I see you and I feel you. That's what makes people feel important.
00:24:13:10 - 00:24:51:24
Speaker 1
So these are really people who will not always be brought to the boardroom or, you know, to make sure that all the voices in the organization I heard and really follow through what one of those you are, what I work with and I really like you have this concept of creating like a shadow board with Millennium. So you have and then, you know, you will you will have these board of people share with them some of the strategic initiative in an organization and get them to reflect on it and come up with some solution to to to the organization.
00:24:51:24 - 00:24:58:09
Speaker 1
Now, I found that that was really effective and it was also a very effective way of developing talent throughout the organization.
00:24:58:14 - 00:25:21:05
Speaker 2
Yes, absolutely. I got to agree more with just leaders just need to find a way to make sure that this 80% of the employees are just being carried along and even let's just let's just you know the man of the hour right now Zelensky one of the things we see about Zelensky is Zelensky. As a former comedian and as a former actor, there's one superpower he has.
00:25:21:23 - 00:25:41:10
Speaker 2
He has an ability to connect with people's heads and heart. As a comedian, if you can get your audience to laugh, you don't have a job. Right? So but this guy Zelensky has been extremely successful. So just think of how he's used that superpower to become the president of Ukraine and think about how he's using that power right now to influence the world.
00:25:41:15 - 00:26:01:07
Speaker 2
You see him speaking to governments, you see him on social media, speaking to the youth, you see him on TV, going to the hospitals to visit people that picture like I'm not just for the top. He's seen no, I connect. I'm a leader for the top. I'm a leader for the people in the organization. I'm a leader for everyone.
00:26:01:07 - 00:26:10:06
Speaker 2
Is such a powerful, powerful concept, you know, that people can relate to that leader. It just takes it to a totally different level, you know?
00:26:10:07 - 00:26:35:12
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And he's really, really doing a very hard job at this time, you know, looking after the people of Ukraine. And, you know, our hearts and thoughts are really with them at this difficult time. And that takes us to the confidence with the next person that you have on your leadership plans. Can you take us through about the confident with the confident for the leader?
00:26:35:16 - 00:26:53:20
Speaker 2
So when I was thinking about and processing these two, the experiences, you know, one might argue that one to your trusted advisers, your confidence as well, you know, and the question is there may be there are going to be instances, though, that there's going to be a conflict of interest with somebody who is a confidant and your trusted advisor.
00:26:53:20 - 00:27:15:18
Speaker 2
If you're thinking of doing a restructuring, if you are thinking of a big change, come in and is going to affect one of your confidants. Your trusted advisers. Confiding in that person is going to could be bias. And that's why if they are doing an operation, they don't advise medical doctors to operate on their own. Children, because there's a lot of emotion that could cloud judgment at that point in time.
00:27:15:24 - 00:27:32:07
Speaker 2
So your confidence that people who have no stake in the game that's how I separate a confidant from a trusted advisor. They have nothing to gain other than you been extremely successful. It doesn't affect them directly. And the people you can totally you know, for yourself out without having to hold anything back.
00:27:32:14 - 00:28:08:06
Speaker 1
No, I agree. We agree there because at the end of the day is a is a person and is a human being. Sometimes people talk about the leader being being very lonely at the top. And I like to say it doesn't have to be lonely and actually to make sure that you're not alone at the top and having these these that confidant these people to to lean into it's a really, really important I think and then I like the sixth one that you you listed, you know, the Goliath.
00:28:08:20 - 00:28:11:04
Speaker 1
Who is the Goliath for for the leader.
00:28:11:13 - 00:28:37:21
Speaker 2
Like the minority voices. Your minority voices, you know, I think is one of the most underdeveloped muscles in organizations. This is the second one to it because with this, this shows the kind of the kind of leader, I would say the caliber of leader that you are. Because I was reading a book recently, I'm not sure whether it was the King Johnson or somebody I was reading a book recently that talks about, you know, the A-plus leaders and the B and C leaders, A-plus leaders.
00:28:37:21 - 00:28:59:01
Speaker 2
Welcome to Challenge, because they realize that there's something they are missing. And this people who have alternative viewpoints will bring all those things to the surface. So they surround themselves with such people so they can really think things through B-plus and C plus. Leaders, on the other hand, are a bit insecure and they don't want people to challenge them.
00:28:59:10 - 00:29:22:04
Speaker 2
So they suppress those voices. And when this book about, you know, I believe it was Abraham Lincoln at the time in terms of how he brought a lot of his rivals to the leadership table, because one thing he knew was that even though his rivals on him felt very differently, one thing he couldn't question was that each of these people wanted the country to be successful.
00:29:22:17 - 00:29:44:22
Speaker 2
So rather than it becoming I and them, you know, me versus you, it's more like, let's tap onto this best thought processes and let's the truth suffers. The truth is always going to be somewhere in the middle. But the question is, are you confident enough in your leadership ability? They do feel threatened by people who have different voices or different opinions of the table.
00:29:45:05 - 00:30:05:18
Speaker 2
And I will say that this is where I have seen that. I've seen many leaders switch over to positional leadership, either because they don't have the patience at times. Leaders want to work extremely fast or the thing that they've all aligned on something and they don't really want to take time to bring that either one of you lonely voices behind and they switch into the position.
00:30:05:19 - 00:30:19:08
Speaker 2
And I often think it's a mistake because that person again, the goal here is not consensus the goal is not always consensus is. But at inter we say something about disagree on commit. In order for me to disagree on commits, I need to feel hurt.
00:30:19:16 - 00:30:20:10
Speaker 1
Absolutely.
00:30:20:22 - 00:30:33:21
Speaker 2
So that is the key thing. So even if you are not going to go in the way of the different opinions, but at least let people know that you've genuinely had them. And I think when people do that, it's always easier for people to fall in line because they think they've been heard.
00:30:33:22 - 00:31:02:16
Speaker 1
That's so important. And I think also, you know, you talked about the Goliad you know, it challenges a leader because it's it you don't have to look for. It is out there. You just need to recognize that is out there. And and some time we are seeing we can imagine goals as a big mighty person out there coming after us.
00:31:02:23 - 00:31:31:08
Speaker 1
They can also be the small player out there who, you know, for most companies if you ask me who's going to be the leader in the in 5100 years from now, you know I can't tell you that will be because that company doesn't exist today but for what established organization today they need to think about those more people out there sometime Goliad can these guys into David is it.
00:31:31:12 - 00:31:47:05
Speaker 2
I really like what you said Max and going back to the question you said who is the Goliath or how do you identify your goal? I love where you said you don't have to look for them. They're going to show up. They're going to knock on your door because they are too big to miss. The second thing is for the glass, that that don't feel too big.
00:31:47:13 - 00:32:05:19
Speaker 2
Anyone think of you have a change agenda in your mind or there's something that is really exciting to you. Who are the people you wish are not in the meetings so you feel they are not going to throw darts into the room those are your Goliath. The people you run that day, you want to pass something, you don't want them to be there or you wish that was the day they went on vacation.
00:32:05:19 - 00:32:32:13
Speaker 2
So you run things through. Those are your goals. The people you rather avoid, those are your goals. And if you want your change efforts to be more successful, you need to bring them on your table. You need to hear their perspectives. Why? If you don't, this are the people who not intentionally, but they are just showing their ideas might end up sabotaging the work not that they're going to about to sabotage, but when other people say, Hey, you know this thing is happening, what do you think?
00:32:32:19 - 00:32:48:15
Speaker 2
You know, their response is like, Hmm, and that enough speaks volumes. But when you get them on board, even if they are not overly excited, they can say, hey, you know, Max, you know, when the leader mentioned this, I had my concerns. But after I, you know, we had a discussion, I would have done it differently. But I can totally see why he wants to do this.
00:32:48:15 - 00:32:59:11
Speaker 2
And I can say, you know, I'm lockstep with him on this one. Guess what? Somebody who could have sabotaged your project has not become an ally. Well, it takes a lot of intentionality. It takes a lot of investment for leaders to do that.
00:32:59:13 - 00:33:14:07
Speaker 1
No, absolutely not. I agree. And that takes us to the seventh voice for the leader, which is the balcony friends. What makes the balcony different, different from the confidence that we saw earlier.
00:33:14:15 - 00:33:35:01
Speaker 2
So when you look at a confident, a confident doesn't have to be in a confident is somebody you really trust, right? Someone you trust. There are some really big things that are happening. You want to make some decisions that you know will have big repercussions, whether for your career or for the organizations, for your customers, whatever. That would be a buck on your friend is someone you know who is there.
00:33:35:02 - 00:33:53:23
Speaker 2
Whether that sends you a text once every day, once every week, who is checking on you more for your emotional health, who is on the stand in like this person is going through a lot. How can I be there because yes, you know, leader, leadership isn't easy. You know, the leaders are often the last to get thank you's when things go bad.
00:33:53:23 - 00:34:13:24
Speaker 2
You know, the leaders get the boats when things go good, the leader has to give the credit to other people. So leaders are people, too. So you need that emotional support wherever it comes from, whether it's from your spouse. Whether it's, you know, from a friend whereby comes from somebody that is just cheering you on. And even when you mess up because as a leader, if you are doing your job, you're going to mess up.
00:34:13:24 - 00:34:28:03
Speaker 2
You're going to take some risks you are going to drop the ball. Is somebody say who put their arms around you? I said, you know what? Yes, it was as bad as it seemed. Well, guess what? You're going to get over this. You know, I'm with you. I've seen you succeed. In the past. You know, I've seen you not do well in the past.
00:34:28:03 - 00:34:47:10
Speaker 2
But trust me, every time you've fallen, you've always come back bigger and better. You need those voices in your is. Those are your motivational tapes that are playing to you. And if you are feeling bad, you just say, Hey, pal, Max, I'm having a bad day. I'm Max. Is Richard. You got this? You know, I think why you're doing this, you want to make a difference in the lives of people.
00:34:47:21 - 00:35:06:09
Speaker 2
If it was easy, anybody would do it. And because is hard, Max, you are the person for the job. Just hearing voices like that just brightens your day. You know, it gives you another reason to move on. And we all need that, you know, whether you have an official title or not. And I also believe everybody's a leader everybody has the seed of greatness in them.
00:35:06:14 - 00:35:09:24
Speaker 2
We all need it in our lives to continually bring our best selves to work.
00:35:10:01 - 00:35:33:21
Speaker 1
So, you know what? I'm going to save what you just said recently and play it back to myself every time I backed off there because it was so good to hear and so comforting. And you're right, we all need that voice and some days feel like we need to to hear it every day. So really, really thank you for that.
00:35:33:21 - 00:35:45:24
Speaker 1
So would you mind quoting back again for our audience, who are those seven people? Just as a recap so that people know what the seven people that you think are important for the leadership plans know?
00:35:45:24 - 00:36:09:13
Speaker 2
Absolutely. The trusted advisor. You know, I mentioned the trusted advisor. These are either your your office, your finance chief of staff, the people who work very closely within your executive office. The key to the trusted advisor is treat them like an equal. Surround yourself with people whose voices you respect. Create a culture whereby they can be bold. And my question to you, leader, how many times do people challenge what you are saying?
00:36:09:13 - 00:36:24:00
Speaker 2
Of course, in a respectful way, do they have the guts and the courage to do that, if not as much as you would like? Check out the environment you are creating for them. The second one is a coach. Having a coach is a sign of strength, not a weakness. Think of the best players in the world. Chris in our role now.
00:36:24:00 - 00:36:46:06
Speaker 2
Don't think of Simon Bowles. Think of, you know, the seven sisters. All of them have coaches. So if you want to go faster and further, get a coach. The third person is the sage. And when we are looking at the sage, this is somebody who has experience and wisdom, somebody who has been where you want to go. It's just like that saying that says if you want to win, you stand on the shoulders of a giant, you see for that.
00:36:46:06 - 00:37:06:16
Speaker 2
So it's important that every one of us gets a sage. The minority voices are the 80% of the people who are not in the boardroom, who are not in the leadership room. But these are the people who do the work. And the principle here is whoever should sweeps the room should choose the broom. If they are going to be doing the work, then at least hear them out, hear their voices.
00:37:06:20 - 00:37:25:01
Speaker 2
It's like the salespeople who are facing the customers. When you want to set targets or the specs you want to make sure their voices are being heard because they are the frontline employees. The other one is a confidant and a confidant is somebody you know, you can go on script. It you can say exactly what what your what you are going through in your mind.
00:37:25:05 - 00:37:45:06
Speaker 2
Some challenges that you have in your organization is facing just somebody to hear you out. Very important. The other one is the Goliath. And like we said earlier, the goal ads are often too big to miss. Every one of us has a goal. Now, the thing is, what separates the a-players from the leaders is embracing your Goliath. Goliath also want the organization to be successful.
00:37:45:12 - 00:38:04:08
Speaker 2
The point is you have two different paths to get there. But listen to those voices, you know, to convert them to allies. The other one I mentioned again is the balcony friend. You know, that friend that tells you like, hey, yes, sometimes they are going to drop the ball. And if you are not dropping the ball, it means you are not trying hard enough get over yourself, get back in the game of life, you're going to make it.
00:38:04:12 - 00:38:23:20
Speaker 2
And the last one we didn't talk about, which I put as a bonus, is taking time out to invest in the next generation of leaders. These are the people who are going to carry your legacy when you are gone, the other people who are going to translate that vision to make it sustaining. So making sure that you have time to develop those wonderful set of people.
00:38:23:22 - 00:38:54:22
Speaker 1
Thank you so much, Rich, as it's a rite of wisdom that you partnered with us in such a short amount of time. And I like to end my interviews with typical three questions. And you know, really helping people to carry on the journey and what will be three or or two or one book of leadership that you will recommend us to to read and go further.
00:38:55:16 - 00:39:17:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. Is this book I'm reading right now is from Tom Rath is life's greatest questions and typically is answering that question from Martin Luther King. That lies the most urgent and persistent question is what are we doing for others? You know, that's ultimately what leadership is about. So it's a really great read because I think automatically when you answer that question, it helps you to move from having a job to a career.
00:39:17:19 - 00:39:35:07
Speaker 2
If you're in a career it mostly to a calling. So I think this is a really great one by Tom Roth. Another one which again, I've been reading this book for 20 years and I still go back to it all the time. Is The Pursuit of Purpose by Dr. Miles Monroe is a phenomenal book as well, so I highly recommend it.
00:39:35:16 - 00:39:54:03
Speaker 2
And another book which I have, which just got live, you know, on Amazon is from your very own Dr. Richard Oshie. Banjo is the five essential things every leader must get right so it's just launched on Amazon, so feel free to get that as well. So I just had to sneak in sneaking that.
00:39:54:08 - 00:40:20:19
Speaker 1
I know about. This is a very important way to continue the conversation. So thank you so much, Richard. That was a really, really good advice that you shared with us today. This was the Max The Leadership Podcast Thank you for joining us to listen to future episodes. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
00:40:21:02 - 00:40:25:20
Speaker 1
Until next time. Keep being the leader everybody trusts and respects.
